Anwar's 'gut feeling' in sodomy trial outcome....

PKR's fire-and-brimstone speeches may give the impression that the party does not hold the judiciary in high regard. But when it comes to his own court case, PKR de facto leader Anwar Ibrahim is remarkably optimistic. Asked if he believes that he will be convicted of sodomy, he said, without missing a beat: "There is no reason for them to." Behind his resolute answer, however, is perhaps a hint of doubt.

In a 2009 Malaysiakini interview, he was adamant - there was "no way" he would end up in prison, he said - but during an interview last week he said this outcome is "not likely". Unlikely or not, the fact that a prima facie case has been made against him does not inspire much confidence. Is he ready for a few more years in prison?"I have gone through the best, the worst. (They cannot) give me ultimatums or threaten me like this. I have a gut feeling (that I won't go to jail) ...," he said.

Will PKR, which sustained a heavy blow following its somewhat controversial direct elections last year, be able to hold it together under the leadership of wife and party president Dr Wan Azizah Wan Ismail? What then would be the role of current deputy president Azmin Ali in his mentor's absence? Would Anwar's purported blue-eyed boy be prepared to take over leadership of the young party?

In the interview, Anwar provided some insight into what the party could be like 'post-Anwar'. He also gave imparting words of wisdom to Azmin while taking a swipe at former ally and current Kita president Zaid Ibrahim. The content has been edited for language and brevity.

Malaysiakini: The party has been consistently attacked since its direct elections last year. Do you think it was the right decision to hold such an election?

Anwar Ibrahim: You know some liberal voices said that we shouldn't be too democratic because people are not ready. But then why are we talking about being democratic at all? This is the price we have to pay.

We wanted to have an election, and it was quite expensive, but I think to be fair, (the election committee) did a good job. There were some concerns, especially some complaints about slow action, about party discipline, (and results being) suspended.

Even now there are (elections being conducted again) for Batu Sapi and Semporna because some ballot boxes went missing. So if you say we were not ready, we can say that. But not that the people are not ready. There may be problems with the machinery, but the people are okay, they can accept this.

There is criticism that you are not an elected leader.

Yes, I wasn't elected by direct election but the delegates passed a resolution (in 2009). I didn't chair the party meeting. It was Azizah who chaired the meeting.

Are you ready to contest in next (party) election?

If Azizah concedes, then I contest.

Or if you don't go to prison?

Yeah. Which is not likely... There is no reason (for a conviction).

Are you sure?

Under what law? (The authorities) have to be prepared for the consequences. Why, do they have to think that the people are stupid? Why do they pass judgment like that? How can you have a judgment like that? I might as well read the prosecution's text in the so-called prima facie case. (They) make a mockery of this law.

By the way, I have not gotten the (written) judgment yet, although it was read out in court... which struck me as odd.

Are you prepared for the event that you do end up back in prison?

I have gone through the best, the worst. (They cannot) give me ultimatums or threaten me like this. I have a gut feeling (that I won't go to jail)...

So the reason why you didn't run (for party president) was due to the sodomy trial, is that right?

Yeah, so many reasons, you don't have to explain everything. I listened to the leaders, I looked at (the situation). Who wants me to run? Utusan Malaysia. It's interesting, Utusan launched a campaign and you were influenced by it.

They ran a massive campaign, so you should ask why. Suddenly, the only positive thing they say is that Anwar should be the president of the party. More the reason I don't want to be.

Would there be someone in PKR who can take over?

Nobody is indispensable. Politicians with a big ego sometimes feel that they are, but honest to God, you must know.

Mandela had a replacement, Gandhi had a replacement. They are great people and they had replacements, and the Prophet, although you don't replace the Prophet but (he was succeeded) by the sahabat (the caliphate). So small fry like us, you don't know, I can just disappear tomorrow within the system.

You now have Azmin Ali (as a potential successor) but he's not like you. He's not so well-liked within the party.

Yes.

What advice would you give him to improve his image?

No, he works, I mean, people sometimes feel sorry for me because I went to prison and all that.

So he has to go to prison too?

[Laughs] We work as a team. Azizah may not be as politically savvy as me but she can appeal. For example, in Sabah, we let Azizah deal with it and suddenly things are so calm. So I asked her, 'What did you do? What doa (prayers) did you say? Things are so calm now'. So Azmin must do likewise. He has to build a team that can complement his limitations or weaknesses.

Secondly, you have to be seen... because if they start comparing, that is a problem like whoever takes over from Mandela. I am, of course, at a lower level, but there is always that problem, of people comparing.

But I believe that (Azmin) believes that he has the right (characteristics) but he has to be seen as to be more accommodative, conciliatory and at times even more guarded [chuckles], patient in some of the remarks. That will be highlighted, won't it? (That) 'Azmin has to be more guarded, patient'. Good luck to him, I'd better alert him. [Laughs]

Do you think he's a good successor?

Not a successor, this must be left to the party to decide. Right now he is deputy president, a major role but ... to succeed, as I said, he must work as a team, and ... let the party decide.

Can PKR move beyond the current state in which it is perceived as a family institution?

That (perception comes) from some liberal voice like yours. We don't (talk like that), we talk about change, policies, about price increase, about petrol price hikes. Only some cynical voices say (that PKR is a family institution).

How is (daughter, PKR vice-president and Lembah Pantai MP) Nurul Izzah different (from former prime minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi's son-in-law, Umno Youth chief and Rembau MP) Khairy (Jamaluddin) and (former prime minister Dr Mahathir Mohamad's son, deputy international trade and investment minister and Jerlum MP) Muhkriz (Mahathir)?

Izzah suffered. She didn't have a teenage life. She didn't get to university because she is bumiputera, she had the grades. So there is a difference there. Then there is Azizah (who) wasn't ambitious politically, she never wanted to (join politics), but at that time - remember in 1998 - she was thrown into it. But I don't think it's a family institution.

Look, I am in (PKR), I don't deny that fact but I think I should be free from the nitty-gritty of (managing PKR), most of it, and then focus on the bigger agenda. That's why I spend more time with Pakatan (Rakyat). Many people believe that (I control PKR)... but I don't. I spend Wednesday night with the political bureau (but) my (other) programmes take priority. Only when it comes to serious policy issues, I do (get involved), otherwise I don't.

I leave it to Azizah (right) and her team. They run (the party). It's different if you're president, there's a lot of administrative work.

Pakatan is new, you have to build trust and confidence to make sure it works ... with (PAS president) Abdul Hadi (Awang), (DAP parliamentary leader Lim) Kit (Siang), (DAP secretary-general Lim) Guan Eng, (PAS secretary-general) Mustafa Ali - that is my work.

As much as you are the glue which holds Pakatan together, you also seem to be the pet subject of attack. Do you think you're a liability to the coalition?

That is also a strategy. I think whoever takes the lead (gets attacked). Why Nik Aziz, why Guan Eng? I think it's about (who is) the most effective to be attacked.

You're the most effective to be attacked?

For now it is me, Nik Aziz and Guan Eng.

Yes, but you more than the other two.

Yeah, because they think I spend more time with Pakatan. And I'm clearly a threat. They announce me as the leader, as the next PM. (Prime Minister) Najib (Abdul Razak) cannot take that.

You also get attacked by the likes of Zaid Ibrahim (who left PKR in 2009 citing frustrations in the party poll, where he contested for the deputy presidency), particularly on the sex video issue.

Zaid Ibrahim now talking about morality? Good luck to him. Who talks about morality? If (outside) Umno, it is Zaid Ibrahim; inside Umno, it is Rahim Thamby Chik.

Why do you think Zaid was so bitter? Perhaps he felt that you had betrayed him...

Well, (when) he just joined (PKR), we gave him a spot in the political bureau, he contested in the by-election against the (advice of the) entire branch and the state from the (Selangor) menteri besar onwards.

He pleaded, he wanted, said give him a chance blah, blah, blah, every other night at home pleading, so I thought, okay, give him a chance. He lost (the Hulu Selangor by-election).

So it's not really about the direct election?

(There was friction) even before.

Do you think he took over Parti Kita as a personal thing against you?

It doesn't matter. We are faced with bigger things, but now for him to talk about morality, I say good luck to him.

(Anwar was interviewed by Steven Gan, Salhan K Ahmad, Kow Gah Chie and Aidila Razak.)

source:malaysiakini