I dont know why Ulamas cannot debate with Christians.???
I suspect they are afraid of loosing in a debate. Pehaps the Universities, they attend never taught the use of their mind. Perhaps they are taught to follow blindly what their teachers say.. Perhaps, this hadis made them stupid... Reported by Jundub "The prophet Mohamad said that whoever use their mind to interpret the Quran should be prepared to go to hell fire".
This is one reason why Arab Muslim and non Arab Ulamas never want to debate because debating is the use of the mind.
This debate is based on the Christian point of view on why they mistranslated "god", a noun to "Allah", a proper noun/name, explained by Dr D Soesilo.
Please refer to the full article @...
http://www.malaysia-today.net/archives/archives-2010/29421-allah-cant-be-substituted-with-tuhan-in-bible-translation
The Debate
1) The Christian said:
I would have thought that any Malay would know that the meaning of the words Allah (God) and Tuhan (Lord, Rabb) are not the same.
1) Pak Yeh's refutation:
You will be suprised that the Malays, know more of the Arab language than the Arab. Ha,ha,
Allah actually means "Al" + "illah" .
"Al" means "the" and "illah" means "god". When joined together Allah is a name of the Muslim god as proven by the Quran.
Proof of this is in the sentence "La illa ha illallah" in the Quran and much recited by all Muslims, which means "No god(illah) but Allah".
So your statement that Allah is god is wrong.!!! Allah means "the god" which is a name of god.
Your statement that "tuhan" means Lord or Rabb is also wrong, because....
"tuhan" is a noun meaning "god"
"Lord" is a name of "god" or "tuhan"
You cannot substitue a noun 'god" with a name Lord or Rabb.!!!
Rabb or Lord means "Tuanku" in Malay.
So the right word for "Rabb" or "Lord" is "Tuanku" and not "Allah".!!!
2) The Christian said:
How can they suggest that Christians simply use the word Tuhan to substitute the word Allah? To express the issue linguistically, Allah and Tuhan have different senses even though they have the same reference.
Both the terms Allah and Tuhan are used in the Malay Bible.
2) Pak Yeh's reply:
Read my no.1) refutation above and you will realize that what you say does not make sense.!!!
3) The Christian said:
Following the precedent set by Arab Christians, Allah is used to translate el/elohim and Tuhan (or TUHAN in caps) is used to translate Yahweh (YHWH). The two words are sometimes paired together as Yahweh-Elohim in 372 places in the Old Testament (14 times in Genesis 2-3; 4 times in Exodus; 8 times in Joshua; 7 times in 2 Samuel; 22 times in Chronicles; 12 times in Psalms; 32 times in Isaiah; 16 times in Jeremiah and 210 times in Ezekiel, etc.).
3) Pak Yeh's refutation:
Ha,ha.!"tuhan" in caps(capital letters) !!! That verily is a lie.!!!
There is no capital letters for a noun. !!!
Capital letters are only for names.!!!
Besides, there is no capital letters in Hebrew,Arab.Malay,English for the noun "tuhan".!!!
Got you Christians.!!! You are a bunch of liars.!!!
4) The Christian said:
More importantly, the word Tuhan is also applied to Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Thus we read of the LORD Jesus as Tuhan Yesus (The word LORD was used to translate the word kurios 8,400 times in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It refers to human beings in only 400 times and refers to God 8,000 times. Of these 8,000 times, 6,700 are substitute for the word YHWH). The transference of the title kurios LORD/YHWH to Jesus Christ is testimony to the belief in the deity of Christ right at the beginning of Christianity.
This simple statistical survey shows clearly that the demand by Muslim demonstrators that Christians simply substitute the word Allah with Tuhan is unreasonable since it renders many Biblical references to God and Jesus Christ incoherent.
4)Pak Yeh's reply:
All that statistics and statement does not give you the right to mistranslaye "god" a noun to "Allah" a name.!!!
5) The Christian said:
First, the substitution is incorrect since the meaning of Allah and Tuhan are different.
5) Pak Yeh's reply:
Agreed. "Allah" is a name and "tuhan" is a noun. You cannot trnslate a noun "tuhan" for a name "Allah".!!!
6) The Christian said:
Second, it creates an absurd situation when Christians try to translate the paired words Tuhan Allah (LORD God). Are Christians now required to call the LORD God, Tuhan Tuhan? This sounds like committing linguistic redundancy. Worse still, the repeated words Tuhan Tuhan come across to Malay readers as suggesting that Christians believe in a plurality of Lords/Gods (since the plural form in Malay is expressed by repeating the noun and setting them in apposition).
6) Pak Yeh's reply:
You got that absurd situation "Tuhan,tuhan" sentence because you mistranslatedLord to Tuhan.
As said before, "tuhan" is a noun, as such it cannot replace with "Lord" a name.
The right translation is "Tuanku" tuhan ku" or the Arab word "Rabbi tuhan ku".
Substituting "Lord" for Allah is wrong as Allah means "The God" and not "Lord"
It looks like you mistranslated your Gospel in Arab and in Malay. Ha,ha,ha.
What a foolish blunder in Malay translation.!!!
7) The Christian said:
Finally, Christians are unable to express the Lordship of Jesus Christ as one who is distinct from the Father and yet shares with the God of the Old Testament, the name that is above every other name — kurios/Tuhan (Philippians 2:9, cf. Isaiah 45:23). In other words, Christians are rendered unable to affirm the deity of Jesus Christ and teach the doctrine of Trinity without the foundational words that maintain the semantic relationship between the words Allah and Tuhan as they are applied distinctively in the Malay Bible.
7) Pak Yeh's reply :
Of course, that statement is correct. You cannot proof the deity of Jesus even if you use Yaweh the Bible god instead of Allah That is because Yaweh said he is a "One God" and not a "trinity god".Refer Isaiah 43:10,11,12 "I am the only god.There is no god before me an there is no god after me.And there is no Savior except me."
The Old Tesrtament verse proves that the Bible god is not a trinity.!!! As such Jesus is not a god/deity.!!!
Even with you own original Bible god's name, yet, you cannot prove Jesus' diety, how then can you prove Jesus' dirty with the use of Allah,???
This task is even more impossibly when Allah says in Quran 5:72,73
"They surely disbelieve (kafir) who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers
They surely disbelieve (kafir) who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve."
Maybe Christian would want to debate with me at the comments column.???
Let's debate intelligently to make things clearer. and more understandable.!!!
Let us then choose the version of truth of the winner of this debate.!!!
Christians must stop using Allah if you lose this debate.!!!
I suspect they are afraid of loosing in a debate. Pehaps the Universities, they attend never taught the use of their mind. Perhaps they are taught to follow blindly what their teachers say.. Perhaps, this hadis made them stupid... Reported by Jundub "The prophet Mohamad said that whoever use their mind to interpret the Quran should be prepared to go to hell fire".
This is one reason why Arab Muslim and non Arab Ulamas never want to debate because debating is the use of the mind.
This debate is based on the Christian point of view on why they mistranslated "god", a noun to "Allah", a proper noun/name, explained by Dr D Soesilo.
Please refer to the full article @...
http://www.malaysia-today.net/archives/archives-2010/29421-allah-cant-be-substituted-with-tuhan-in-bible-translation
The Debate
1) The Christian said:
I would have thought that any Malay would know that the meaning of the words Allah (God) and Tuhan (Lord, Rabb) are not the same.
1) Pak Yeh's refutation:
You will be suprised that the Malays, know more of the Arab language than the Arab. Ha,ha,
Allah actually means "Al" + "illah" .
"Al" means "the" and "illah" means "god". When joined together Allah is a name of the Muslim god as proven by the Quran.
Proof of this is in the sentence "La illa ha illallah" in the Quran and much recited by all Muslims, which means "No god(illah) but Allah".
So your statement that Allah is god is wrong.!!! Allah means "the god" which is a name of god.
Your statement that "tuhan" means Lord or Rabb is also wrong, because....
"tuhan" is a noun meaning "god"
"Lord" is a name of "god" or "tuhan"
You cannot substitue a noun 'god" with a name Lord or Rabb.!!!
Rabb or Lord means "Tuanku" in Malay.
So the right word for "Rabb" or "Lord" is "Tuanku" and not "Allah".!!!
2) The Christian said:
How can they suggest that Christians simply use the word Tuhan to substitute the word Allah? To express the issue linguistically, Allah and Tuhan have different senses even though they have the same reference.
Both the terms Allah and Tuhan are used in the Malay Bible.
2) Pak Yeh's reply:
Read my no.1) refutation above and you will realize that what you say does not make sense.!!!
3) The Christian said:
Following the precedent set by Arab Christians, Allah is used to translate el/elohim and Tuhan (or TUHAN in caps) is used to translate Yahweh (YHWH). The two words are sometimes paired together as Yahweh-Elohim in 372 places in the Old Testament (14 times in Genesis 2-3; 4 times in Exodus; 8 times in Joshua; 7 times in 2 Samuel; 22 times in Chronicles; 12 times in Psalms; 32 times in Isaiah; 16 times in Jeremiah and 210 times in Ezekiel, etc.).
3) Pak Yeh's refutation:
Ha,ha.!"tuhan" in caps(capital letters) !!! That verily is a lie.!!!
There is no capital letters for a noun. !!!
Capital letters are only for names.!!!
Besides, there is no capital letters in Hebrew,Arab.Malay,English for the noun "tuhan".!!!
Got you Christians.!!! You are a bunch of liars.!!!
4) The Christian said:
More importantly, the word Tuhan is also applied to Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Thus we read of the LORD Jesus as Tuhan Yesus (The word LORD was used to translate the word kurios 8,400 times in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It refers to human beings in only 400 times and refers to God 8,000 times. Of these 8,000 times, 6,700 are substitute for the word YHWH). The transference of the title kurios LORD/YHWH to Jesus Christ is testimony to the belief in the deity of Christ right at the beginning of Christianity.
This simple statistical survey shows clearly that the demand by Muslim demonstrators that Christians simply substitute the word Allah with Tuhan is unreasonable since it renders many Biblical references to God and Jesus Christ incoherent.
4)Pak Yeh's reply:
All that statistics and statement does not give you the right to mistranslaye "god" a noun to "Allah" a name.!!!
5) The Christian said:
First, the substitution is incorrect since the meaning of Allah and Tuhan are different.
5) Pak Yeh's reply:
Agreed. "Allah" is a name and "tuhan" is a noun. You cannot trnslate a noun "tuhan" for a name "Allah".!!!
6) The Christian said:
Second, it creates an absurd situation when Christians try to translate the paired words Tuhan Allah (LORD God). Are Christians now required to call the LORD God, Tuhan Tuhan? This sounds like committing linguistic redundancy. Worse still, the repeated words Tuhan Tuhan come across to Malay readers as suggesting that Christians believe in a plurality of Lords/Gods (since the plural form in Malay is expressed by repeating the noun and setting them in apposition).
6) Pak Yeh's reply:
You got that absurd situation "Tuhan,tuhan" sentence because you mistranslatedLord to Tuhan.
As said before, "tuhan" is a noun, as such it cannot replace with "Lord" a name.
The right translation is "Tuanku" tuhan ku" or the Arab word "Rabbi tuhan ku".
Substituting "Lord" for Allah is wrong as Allah means "The God" and not "Lord"
It looks like you mistranslated your Gospel in Arab and in Malay. Ha,ha,ha.
What a foolish blunder in Malay translation.!!!
7) The Christian said:
Finally, Christians are unable to express the Lordship of Jesus Christ as one who is distinct from the Father and yet shares with the God of the Old Testament, the name that is above every other name — kurios/Tuhan (Philippians 2:9, cf. Isaiah 45:23). In other words, Christians are rendered unable to affirm the deity of Jesus Christ and teach the doctrine of Trinity without the foundational words that maintain the semantic relationship between the words Allah and Tuhan as they are applied distinctively in the Malay Bible.
7) Pak Yeh's reply :
Of course, that statement is correct. You cannot proof the deity of Jesus even if you use Yaweh the Bible god instead of Allah That is because Yaweh said he is a "One God" and not a "trinity god".Refer Isaiah 43:10,11,12 "I am the only god.There is no god before me an there is no god after me.And there is no Savior except me."
The Old Tesrtament verse proves that the Bible god is not a trinity.!!! As such Jesus is not a god/deity.!!!
Even with you own original Bible god's name, yet, you cannot prove Jesus' diety, how then can you prove Jesus' dirty with the use of Allah,???
This task is even more impossibly when Allah says in Quran 5:72,73
"They surely disbelieve (kafir) who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers
They surely disbelieve (kafir) who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve."
Maybe Christian would want to debate with me at the comments column.???
Let's debate intelligently to make things clearer. and more understandable.!!!
Let us then choose the version of truth of the winner of this debate.!!!
Christians must stop using Allah if you lose this debate.!!!
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